International condemnation coming thick
and fast as you might imagine. Jordan's
foreign minister has said said that
Israel's assault on Gaza had caused
massacres and starvation and that its
wider actions were killing all prospects
for peace in the Middle East. The French
president, Emanuel Macron, has said the
proposed offensive would lead to true
disaster and drag the region into
permanent war. Germany has said it has
found it increasingly difficult to
understand how these actions will lead
to the freeing of the hostages or to a
ceasefire. And of course, we have seen
in the last few days mass protests in
Israel itself, including from the
hostage families, saying that the
ongoing offensive in Gaza will do
nothing to get the remaining hostages
free. Something that the Israeli
government disagrees with vehemently and
has said that those protests only add
sucker to Hamas. My question for you
this morning is quite simple. This
conflict has now been going on since
October the 7th. I know many of you will
message and say it's been going on for
75 years. I know but I'm talking about
the more confined uh part of this story
which obviously this new stage began on
October the 7th. The heinous horrendous
attacks on October the 7th and
everything that we have seen flow from
it since that was going on now for what
20 months ago and going on for two years
ago. And yet instead of lessening the
conflict is widening. It is worsening.
So my question to you this morning is
when does it end and how does it end?
because of the Israeli government right
now is saying it ends with Hamas's total
destruction. But how on earth can we
even measure that? How can we ever say
that that is going to be the case?
Because how can you defeat what is in
essence not just a terrorist
organization but an idea?
0345609734560973
text 84850. Obviously a solemn start to
the show in many ways this morning, but
I think you'd agree given the gravity of
the ongoing events in Gaza, it is well
worth discussing. Let's turn to Yakov
Katz, author of the book While Israel
Slept, former adviser to Naftali
Bennett. Um, Yakov was also the former
editor-in chief of the Jerusalem Post.
So, we're very grateful for him joining
us this morning. That's my question to
you, Mr. Katz this morning. When does
this end?
>> Well, I think it ends in a simple way,
and it can end today. If Hamas were to
release the Israeli hostages, 20 of whom
are living, 30 who are believed to be
dead, that they're still holding on to
and are languishing in Hamas captivity
in Gaza, release them back to Israel,
say, "We are no longer interested in
attacking Israel. We no longer want to
uh destroy Israel. We lay down our arms.
Gaza can be free, can be rebuilt. Israel
can live in safety and security." It's
that simple. I think no one would want
to see an ending that under which kamas
remains in power in Gaza, still has
weapons, still can attack, still can try
to carry out another October 7th
atrocity. That would not be good for
Israel, would not be good for the
Palestinians, and would not be good for
the world.
>> Would the release of the hostages in and
of itself, let's say that, do you really
think that Mr. Netanyahu would stop the
conflict then or would he not proceed
with his maximum objectives on the basis
of trying to destroy Hamas if it is not
already largely destroyed already?
>> Well, Nata has already said that he
wants to see a complete deal, a
comprehensive deal. In other words, no
longer partial ceasefires, a trickle
release of just a few hostages in
exchange for a cessation of the
hostilities. What he is saying is, "I
want to see a release of all the
hostages in exchange for an Israeli
withdrawal from most of the Gaza Strip
and the beginning of the day after the
reconstruction of Gaza." Kamas is not
agreeing to that. What Kamas is now
saying it might be agreeing to is a
partial end to the war, which would see
the release of just about 10 hostages.
Israel would withdraw to some lines
within Gaza, an increase in the amount
of aid and construction materials
allowed into Gaza, but it would not see
a complete end because as long as
hostages remain, this war will not end.
And I don't think that any country, not
the UK, not the US, no other country in
the world would agree to a situation
that a group of terrorists can cross
into their country, into their
territory, can take people away from
their homes, their military bases, and a
dance festival and expect to get away
with it. It's just not something that's
acceptable anywhere in the world.
>> Which terrorist organization has ever
been completely defeated militarily?
Aren't you simply causing and creating a
whole new generation with your actions,
with the Israeli government's actions in
the way that it is prosecuted and
conducting this war? You will have
radicalized an entire new generation
which you are just handing over to
Hamas.
>> Well, that's I mean that's a terrible
tragedy what's happening in Gaza and how
the people of Gaza have been held
hostage by Hamas all the
>> Israeli government are doing it. The
Israeli government
>> I don't think I don't think it's the I
don't think it's the Israeli government
and I and I'll explain. I think for
example, when we look at what Israel is
trying to do, you're you're 100% right.
You won't be able to kill every last
Kamas member or collect every last AK-47
Kalachnikov assault rifle. But you you
can do is degrade them to the extent
that they no longer have an interest in
fighting. They no longer have a desire
to try to destroy you. And that's just
not where Hamas is right now. We saw
that with ISIS. We saw that with
al-Qaeda. We saw after World War II what
the British did together with the
Americans against the Axis against the
against Japan and against Nazi Germany
took away Nazi Germany's desire to fight
took away uh Japan and changed its
course of action and their decision to
align with the West. This is what
decisive victory.
>> That's but the Nazi the Nazis were a
government that were in Germany and we
invaded Germany and we destroyed them.
Right? That was it. What you're talking
about is a terrorist organization. A
terrorist organization.
>> No, we're not talking about a terrorist.
We're talking about a terrorist
organization though that controls a
piece of territory. Kamas is the
governing entity over the Gaza Strip.
There was a Kamas government in Gaza.
This was orchestrated by a government
with a military with a police force.
Kamas is no different. I mean, we we we
want to try to create a difference, but
sadly there is no difference. And just
like
>> Yes.
>> But you've already I mean, let's talk
about the military capacity of Hamas.
This is what this entire war was said to
be about which is not now gone on for 20
months. Much of its leadership by your
own government's admission has been
killed. There's Israeli officials
estimate that between 15 to 20,000 Hamas
fighters have been killed. Extensive
tunnel networks have already been
destroyed. Weapons factories and rocket
stock powers have already been reduced
and destroyed. Rocket fire into is into
Israel has dropped dramatically compared
to late 2023. What more is left? You've
already reduced Gaza to rubble. What
more can you possibly do?
>> Give us give us back No. So, give us
back the hostages. But they're not
right.
>> But you about your own admission. Even
if they handed over the hostages,
Netanyahu wouldn't stop.
>> No, no, that's not what I said. I
actually said the opposite. What I said
was that if they gave over all the
hostages, the war would come to an end.
That is what Natano has said. He wants
to see a comprehensive deal under which
all the hostages are released and not a
peace meal deal, which is what Kamas
wants because it releases just a bit and
then holds on and stays in power. That's
not the best scenario. The best scenario
is exactly what you described.
>> Put back all the hostages and then the
war can end and both sides can rebuild.
We can create a new entity that can
govern Gaza and allow the Palestinian
people there to flourish into a better
future. Not as long as kamas is there.
That will never happen.
>> Where are all where are all of the
people in Gaza City supposed to go?
>> Well, this is a very difficult
situation. I'm not going to sugarcoat
it. It's very complicated. Very
difficult.
>> Complicated. It's not that complicated.
You've got you've got thousands and
thousands and thousands of innocent men,
women, and children who have been
terrorized by your rockets and your
missiles and your military for going on
for 2 years now. They've already lived
in the most appalling conditions and
endure the most appalling humanitarian
situation. They are innocent. They are
not at fault. And where I'm just asking
you, where are they supposed to go?
Because it's your military which is
driving them from their homes.
>> But no, I don't I I think you're you're
we're missing a stage in the in the
thinking here. It's Israel's military
that yes is issuing those eviction
orders and saying to them, you have to
move south, but it is Hamas that is
responsible for this. Again,
>> well, Hamas is responsible for
everything the Israeli military decides
to do. So, you're absolved of all moral
responsibility.
>> No, that's not at all what I'm saying.
Of course, that Israel has to operate
just like the UK does within the rules
of war and has to abide by international
legal uh obligations. As you know, many
people think you have not.
>> Well, of course, many people think that,
but that that that is how wars are
fought and that's the right way that
wars should be fought and that's what
Israel does and it holds by a high
strict moral code. But the idea that we
can absolve Hamas and say that this is
all on Israel is also absurd. It means
that we're missing the point. When you
build 300 miles of tunnels under Gaza so
you can protect yourselves as
terrorists, you are basically hiding
under civilian infrastructure, under
people's homes, under hospitals, under
schools. You are doing this as a way to
get Israel to kill your people because
you want to get asked. You want these
radio interviews to happen and these
questions to be asked and to put the
onus and the blame on Israel as opposed
to taking any responsibility as kamas.
Would you say that that highest of moral
standards and responsibilities includes
ensuring that everybody in Gaza has
enough to eat? Because they don't at the
moment, do they?
>> I think that Israel needs to do
personally, in my opinion, should be
doing as much as possible to allow in
humanitarian aid so those civilians can
get food. But let's also just take a
step back for one moment. I don't think
anyone after 9/11 after Osama bin
Laden's operatives flew those those
planes into the Twin Towers and he had
the al-Qaeda top leadership was holed up
in that Tora Bora cave complex along the
Afghanistan Pakistan border. No one
thought to say to George W. Bush at the
time or Tony Blair, "Stop bombing those
caves. We got to get al-Qaeda and their
people. We have to get them gas and
food. We have to provide for them." No
one ever thought that made sense. You
don't feed the mouths that are trying to
destroy you. No, no, but if Blair and
Bush had imposed a 20month siege on
Afghanistan and not allowed sufficient
food into Afghanistan, then yeah, there
would have been a great deal of scrutiny
and a number of questions about what was
going on. A huge
>> That's exactly what happened and no one
did that. Go back to Mosul just more
recently in 2017 when there was a almost
a 2-year in Afghanistan.
>> There was not a famine in Afghanistan.
There was not a famine in Iraq. Mosul
with the destruction there as well. No
one had no no one had held the the US
government and the international
coalition was notam. Look up the
pictures now of how the destruction and
the devastation.
>> There was not Mr. Katz. There was not a
famine in Iraq or
>> there's not a famine in Gaza either.
>> Well, according to people who are there
are people who are starving and I'm not
going to ignore that. But let's also not
forget the two videos of the hostages of
Davidid and Ramboski that came out just
two weeks ago. Those are people
emaciated, malnourished. Those are
people who are really starving. How come
they're not getting food?
>> I wouldn't forget that for a moment. But
at the same time, um it is the hostage
families, as you know, which is calling
on your government to stop the action in
Gaza to ensure that they're released.
And just on the point about famine, the
World Health Organization said that
before before this siege already began
in Gaza City, that nearly 20% of under
fives in Gaza City are acutely
malnourished. a rate that has tripled,
sorry, quadrupled since February. So you
know that there is a profound hunger
problem in Gaza. There have been
children who have died of malnutrition.
Now that is ultimately do you not think
and do you not understand why it is the
world looks at your government, the
Israeli government, and holds them
responsible for that?
>> I think the world holds Israel to a
higher double standard. But but I can't
ignore the fact that there is a tragedy
unfolding in Gaza and that Israel should
be doing as much as possible to get
humanitarian aid and food to feed
everyone so that they can have the
nourishment and the food needed to live
a a a life that is the best possible
right now under these circumstances that
I completely agree with. And if Israel
is not doing enough, then more should be
done. And I also have had criticism of
the government for not doing when I
thought it was not doing enough. I also
agree that if there is an opportunity
right now for Israel to end this war to
get back the hostages and NAO's
government would uphold that, that would
be abhorent. Israel should at this
moment in time. If there is a deal on
the table that is genuine and real, we
should grab it, get our people home, and
end this war so we can continue and both
sides can rebuild. But as long as that
does not happen, this the this idea that
Israel should have to end the war
without getting back the people who were
stolen from their homes is also
something that would not that should not
be acceptable. And that's what makes
this war so complicated and so complex.
And and really at the end of the day, I
think if we put if we really dig into
who's responsible, it is Hamas that can
decide, like I said, right now to end
this war Today.